David: Hello, welcome to another episode of Bangkok Thought Leaders. I’m here today with a very special thought leader, Klaus Hofmann.

Klaus: Hello.

David: Thank you for being my guest today.

Klaus: Absolutely.

David: So Klaus has had a fascinating career so far with over 20 years of top-tier experience, originally with Continental and then with Safran, and now he’s in a very big, important role as the Group CEO of the CCE Group.

Klaus: Exactly, that’s absolutely correct.

David: All right. Amazing. So Klaus, I know a fair bit about CCE Group. But tell the audience at home, what is the CCE Group.

Klaus: As you were with us since the beginning, you should know more about CCE Group than just a little bit. So I guess it’s more about me explaining it instead of you. Yes. So first of all, thanks for having me today. Very excited. I saw your show many times and always wanted to be on, so I’m honored to be here today.

David: Yeah, this is a bit under-selling, you’re not really a Bangkok Thought Leader. You’re like a —

Klaus: That’s true. Earth, Universe thought leader. Funnily enough, since I actually took that role, I have been less and less in Bangkok as my role is more global, but we will come to that in a second.

So talking about CCE Group, CCE Group stands first of all for “Cabin and Cargo Equipment Solutions.” So it’s a company we formed two years ago, roughly 1st of June 2023, when Hivest Capital Partners acquired two businesses out of Safran, which are now known under AviusULD and Driessen Catering Equipment. Since then, a lot of things have already happened. So we just this year celebrated our second anniversary of CCE Group and we are in a full growth model right now with an acquisition we have also just accomplished, which I can talk about in a little bit.

So first of all, at CCE Group, we are building niche leaders in the aerospace cabin and cargo equipment sector, with a growing focus right now on smart solutions and sustainable solutions in order to go after an ecosystem approach. So recently we have published an article also about the ecosystem business model, which is the key motivation of what we are going after at CCE Group.

Currently, we have three companies under our ownership and therefore management. First of all, AviusULD, which was formerly known as Safran Cabin Cargo. It’s a true leader in unit loading devices, so containers or cargo pallets in the global cargo operations.

Second, we have Driessen, Driessen Catering Equipment, a trusted name in the galley trolleys and containers industry and absolute market leader for galley carts.

And then third, recently joined us as of 1st of April, Trip&Co. A new addition. And those are experts in protective solutions for cargo and for temperature-sensitive and high-value cargo with thermal covers and other things.

So our mission is to unite exceptional niche leaders into a global aerospace force while preserving what makes each of them unique. So we have done that successfully with AviusULD and obviously with Driessen. And it’s our goal now to do that also with Trip&Co. For us, we don’t just invest, but we collaborate with the leadership to unlock growth and create impact.

So that’s a little bit in a nutshell on what CCE Group is currently doing, and what it stands for.

David: Thank you Klaus.

Klaus: Absolutely.

David: All new information for me. But as you said in your introduction there, Lexicon has been very fortunate to be a part of the journey since the beginning. And I remember the first day we met, and obviously we knew kind of what the product was, it was for what was to become AviusULD at that time, the first project.

And we did a little bit of research and it was boxes, basically, cargo shipping. And I remember me and Justin were like, ah, this isn’t going to be such a fun project. I remember you came in first day with your white Nikes on, maybe even this shirt on, and you were like, forget all that stuff. What we do, we make the world happen.

Like whatever we’re doing today, when we start traveling into space, you need cargo shipping. When we go underground tunnels, cargo shipping. What we do is essential to the whole world. Amazing. Like, from that day on, I was bought in because I loved that vision, you had the ecosystem idea. Like, it’s not just what the thing can do, right? It’s the potential within it. It’s the whole thing.

And I didn’t know much about the cabin and cargo sector before we met, but it really does make the world go around. Right. You wouldn’t have medicines or foods if it wasn’t for this vital sector that nobody even is aware of. Pretty much. Yeah.

Klaus: Absolutely right. So looking into ULDs, I mean, even before my time at Continental and when I started to be approached for the job at Safran back in the days, and we were talking about those ULDs or containers, I didn’t know much about them. So obviously many of us travel or are fortunate to travel on a regular basis. And those are the little things you never notice at the airport traveling around, right?

So on the example of AviusULD, I mean, it’s the backbone of the logistics and the global trade in terms of air freight logistics or air freight cargo operations. So without a ULD, actually this kind of shipments cannot be made possible, right. So it’s a very important element of the entire value chain of cargo solutions or cargo shipments. And the cargo freight industry in general. And we are very proud of doing our part in this regard by innovating and manufacturing all of those ULDs which are flying around the world.

So per current, let’s say, estimations, it’s a fun fact to know that more than 1 million units of those are being in circulation at any point of time.

Klaus: So that’s the global, let’s say, size of this market. And it’s a lot, you know, and without those ULDs, yeah, many shipments cannot happen. Of course. And let’s take freight forwarders, for example, they rely heavily on the availability of those ULDs. Because if you are just late by one minute, by one hour or half an hour or whatever in this freight forwarding industry, it can mess up your entire schedule because those airplanes have to leave on time in the morning or in the evening, whatever their schedules are.

And ULDs, for example, when they are not in good shape or they are not maintained properly, or they have some issues where it gets stuck in the aircraft or on the loading,  X-Lift loading or whatever equipment they are using to load the aircraft at the airports, at the aircraft, it can have a tremendous impact.

And yeah, it’s a very, very unknown topic.

Klaus: Now, looking to the catering cart

David: I have a silly point to make now, as always.

Klaus: Please do that.

David: Just on that point you were making about the supply chain. I remember at Christmas time we put together a post for you, which was basically like, if you take away ULDs, Santa doesn’t arrive. Yeah, because the whole world’s stuff is moving from China across the world for children to get their presents at Christmas. Yes. Take away that little element that no one ever thinks about. There are no gifts, like it’s that essential. It’s that essential, yeah. You don’t see it, but it’s absolutely essential.

Klaus: Yes, absolutely.

David: As are cabin trolleys.

Klaus: Yes, absolutely. So cabin trolleys, we call it the crew’s best friend. It’s more visible, right, for the average traveler. Because those are the little, let’s say, good-looking trolleys, at least if they are coming from us, that serve you with your food or with your favorite drink, or manage the waste on board. Very important in today’s environment. And also stores all the famous retailers you want to buy on board through online shopping opportunities on board, obviously.

David: And crazy numbers. I’ve seen the numbers on this. It’s like billions of dollars are spent every year on flights, on retail.

Klaus: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, it’s a revenue stream for low-cost carriers or low-cost airlines and so on. It’s an additional revenue stream, which is where they make often a business model out of that. I mean, you have to buy food, you have to buy drinks if you are flying some of those low-cost carriers. And yeah, again, without the cabin trolley impossible to realize. Funny enough, an aircraft, or an airplane, is not allowed to take off if it has not the right amount of trolleys installed. And they, for example, would be seen as airworthiness and non-airworthiness. So, yeah, it’s an essential part of the airplane.

David: And obviously it’s Driessen that produces those. I always keep an eye out for the Driessen trolleys, but I’ve this year been to the Driessen plant up in the north of Thailand. Incredible. As just a,  forget even the industry they’re in,  as a case study of an innovative business. Its R&D is there, production is there, testing is there, manufacturing is there, sales is there. It’s a very, talk about ecosystem, like a self-contained excellent ecosystem just there.

Klaus: Absolutely.

David: I’m sure we’ll talk more about how it all fits together. But that’s a great example.

Klaus: No, definitely. And then last but not least, from our other company Trip&Co, those are also the silent heroes of the cargo environment. Because they are market leader in straps and cargo tie-down straps. So they secure, for example, Formula 1 cars or the most expensive Ferraris anyone wants to ship around the world when traveling on a two-day trip somewhere. Of course, you take your Ferrari with you for that, and if you do so, if you decide to do so, it goes on one of the ULDs on the pallet, and it has to be tied down by one of the straps potentially used by a Trip&Co and then secured with those solutions.

So yeah, many, many things we take for granted, I would say, from a day-to-day operations are only possible because of these little elements and of these little products behind the scenes. So they are really heroes behind the scenes.

David: I’ve seen the pictures of the F1 cars, like it’s, again, something you’d never think about.

Klaus: Yeah, exactly.

David: Yeah. Formula 1 doesn’t happen without the nets. Like all these little elements that are the niche parts of the ecosystem.

Klaus: Yes, exactly.

David: And obviously when it comes to ecosystem, I’ve learned a lot from observing how you go about things. To see the integration between the products, like obviously AviusULD and Trip&Co were already working together, but before you had to buy from two different locations, you’d have to buy from two different people. Putting it together, it’s the horizontal and vertical integration. You’ve got now those two products together, which made sense anyway in the first place. Single contact point, single price, single delivery. It just makes so much sense.

Klaus: Yeah, I mean the ecosystem approach is to take a headache and burdens away from your customer, and to create value by combining things others could not combine. And that’s exactly what we are trying to achieve.

David: Yeah, and on that topic. Obviously, like with all industries, things are moving quickly: AI, technology, everything. I remember when we first spoke also, you were saying that your industry has always lagged a little bit behind because of the nature of it. It’s big, bulky stuff. It’s hard to make it Apple-style, but I’ve seen a lot of developments since we’ve worked together in terms of what the future of the aerospace industry looks like, and especially in the niche cabin and cargo sector. In your opinion, what is the future of this space? What does the next few years look like?

Klaus: So for the equipment we are currently having under our ownership, again ULDs, catering equipment, and ULD accessories, they could be seen quickly as a commodity, right? Because there’s not much to it if you just look at it from this kind of perspective. But what we are going into is smart equipment, connected equipment, and therefore also sustainable cabin and cargo ecosystems.

So in my opinion, the future lies in smart, connected, and sustainable cabin and cargo equipment in order to create those ecosystem models where airlines, stakeholders, customers, even the passengers can benefit from.

Recent example is our Smart ULDs and our Smart Trolleys, which are in launching phases right now with multiple customers testing the products and then, hopefully, later this year launching it into the market. And those are solutions equipped with sensors, capable of running on, let’s say, self energy-harvesting models. So not relying on a battery, and from a communication point of view, not relying on the infrastructure as we are able to communicate via eSIM or LTE, etc.

David: Can we dwell on this battery question a little bit? Because I think you might be underplaying the importance of this. As far as I can see, this is like the world’s going to not need energy anymore. Maybe a little bit too far there, but it’s kinetic energy, right? So it’s in the motion.

Klaus: It’s perpetual motion. Through vibrations, or through motions, and through movements of the equipment, there’s a kinetic part in our SmartULD tech embedded, which generates energy. It’s supported, obviously, by a small battery to have backup scenarios and keep things alive if the equipment is not moving. But for the operations itself, it’s self energy-harvesting through movements and through shocks and through even turbulence in the air.

So turbulence is increasing. I travel almost on a weekly basis, and I can say over the last two years that on my fixed routes I am taking, I have more and more turbulence than I had before. Why is that? I don’t know why it is. I mean, I’m not a weather specialist or whatever, but I could feel there’s more turbulence than 1 or 2 years ago. And maybe it’s just my feeling, but you see it also in the news, right? There were unfortunately some cases here and there which you have not seen that much before.

Anyhow, even from those unfortunate events, we can take energy away and we have a patented solution for that. So we are the only one offering this solution right now in the market. And thanks to that, we have more energy available in a tech which does not drain a battery, which is a pain point for the customers these days. Which means we can even equip it with more sensors, with more technology, etc., etc., which others cannot.

So besides location, temperature, and maybe humidity or other things which are offered today as a standard service in those kind of technologies, we can go beyond that. We have a patented solution also to detect early off-gassing for lithium battery fires, in order to have a more safe environment and predict when such kind of issues are potentially happening. And we have many more features which we are going to launch very soon, which would be impossible from a battery management point of view if you don’t have such kind of solution in place.

David: And no competitor has anything anywhere close to this, I believe.

Klaus: For the moment we don’t see that in the market.

David: Fantastic. Fantastic. And of course, as well as this incredible technological innovation, you told me before, off camera, one of the major problems for airports and airlines is they just lose track of stuff. There’s so many pieces of equipment that it’s just hard to keep up with. So with this technology, also, you’ve got a constant feed of exactly where everything is.

Klaus: Absolutely. And you would be surprised to know how one of the biggest names in the industry are still having people just searching for equipment. So it’s a huge operational improvement opportunity. And yeah, we’d like to play a role into this.

David: Like the concept of sustainability, and when people started talking about it five years ago, it was, you know, like put the solar systems on the roof or whatever, and that’s still important. Sure. But a very misunderstood aspect of it is like with this, you just don’t lose stuff, so you don’t have to replace it. You have to buy more stuff.

Klaus: All of this plays into the sustainability part. I mean, sustainability should always be an outcome of what we are doing in general to improve either efficiencies, operations, or whatever. From a sustainability point of view, we are going for lighter-weight products, so we’re just launching end of the year, one of the lightest trolleys in the market. We call that Ultra Lite design. It goes into the marketing quota for this year. It’s the lightest trolley you can have on the market right now, without giving up on durability and reliability, which is very important for a trolley because they are used over a certain amount of time over here. So it’s not unlikely to have a trolley for ten years or more sometimes in usage. So for the customers, it’s extremely important to have a reliable and robust product but lightweight supports in order to have fuel savings, which is the number one driver in sustainability right now in aviation: fuel savings. So we are supporting with lighter weight products to that one.

David: Just to finish that point, that’s Driessen, of course.

Klaus: Yeah. Driessen.

David: Avius as well. Yeah, but Driessen does the cabin.

Klaus: Yes.

David: They obviously have the lightest piece of cabin equipment there is in the industry, but also the number one for 100 years almost.

Klaus: Yeah, a little bit less.

David: A little bit less. But, you know, decades and decades and decades on top. Again, this is a good example of, like, the average person on the plane doesn’t even know this company exists, but they’re, like, one of the biggest names in the air.

Klaus: Absolutely, absolutely. So, absolutely. And the same is valid for ULDs. So also here the trend goes into lighter weight and economic friendly, let’s say, materials and, yeah, of course, also recycling is a big thing.

David: I actually was at the All Managers Meeting for AviusULD earlier this year, and, I heard a very funny quote about I think Endumax is the product. This is one of these. It’s heavy or it’s not heavy, it’s strong, it’s durable, and it’s built to last as a result of it being so durable. And, one of the repair people were who fixed the cargo equipment and he said, I hate this. And everything was like, okay, why, what’s wrong with it? And he’s like, I just never see it. It’s so durable that it just never comes across my desk.

Klaus: And funnily enough, I think also Charles was just releasing a study on this one in his latest sustainability report of AviusULD, which was just published. And we are explaining over there that the Endumax, let’s say panel, which we call it, thanks to the durability and thanks to the weight saving and its recyclability, is actually one of the most sustainable solutions you can have in the market. So very interesting on the…

David: The idea of ‘TCO’, I think? 

Klaus: Yeah, it’s total cost of ownership which counts and which should be taken into account. On the Trip&Co side for example, when we talk about consumables, it’s very important from a sustainability point of view to be able to recycle. So our cargo straps and our nets are capable of being recycled. And therefore that’s a huge, let’s say, eco driver as well, or a sustainability driver in the industry. But then yeah. So beside that, obviously the companies are very much engaged. From an operations point of view to cut down as well. So we have sustainable. We have solar cells on the entire roof coverage at Driessen, for example. We are launching a similar program for AviusULD later next year, both of them are also attaining. EcoVadis sustainability ratings here. Driessen just this year was awarded with the gold medal on this one. We are awaiting good news anytime soon also on Avius’ side. Excellent. So, yeah, that’s our other commitments, which are very important. And, these are tough, let’s say, ratings. So this is no joke. And this is not something you just do five minutes online form and then you got rated and you share a little bit of a donation, and then you get an award, right. It’s comprehensive. It’s very comprehensive.

David: Yeah. And I like that about you as a Group CEO too, is that you do see that bigger picture, aside from the logic of the business ecosystem, it’s those other things. You’re seeing all of your customers, they care about sustainability. It’s just the nature of the… Especially the flight industry, they are a major polluter, so what they can do to cut down on that in their supply chain, they’re absolutely keen to do it. Absolutely. But also, I’ve seen the other side of it too. Like, obviously we work with you quite closely on the communications and you’ve always wanted to be different. So how do we stand out from the crowd? And I remember that first meeting we had, we did some competitive research and it was like their color scheme is black, theirs is gray, theirs is dark blue, theirs is gray-black. And then you from the very start were like, we need to stand out. And even you were thinking back then in the Avius color scheme it’s green to represent sustainability. Absolutely.

Klaus: We came back on this one already. And I mean from day one when we formed AviusULD, together with Charles, we were pretty, pretty clear and straightforward about the vision of especially this company as well as a new brand also back in the days, that was about revolutionizing the old industry. And today I can with pride, say, that AviusULD is definitely revolutionizing the ULD industry. Absolutely. And Driessen is the undisputed leader and does its part in innovation and in market dominance and in market leadership, and we are very proud to have them with us.

David: Yeah, I guess I see different parts of the ecosystem than you do, but even bringing Trip&Co into that, even the way they communicate, and obviously, the nature of all the products, it is a bit serious and it’s a bit obviously super high security standards, safety standards, sustainability standards. But that doesn’t mean that you can’t have some fun with it. Like, even with Trip&Co, they like to be playful with what they do.

Klaus: And that’s why it was such a natural fit. Because even before the acquisition of Trip&Co, this is what they were already all about. So under the previous ownership, they were already on the same kind of mission than CCE group was. That’s why it was just such a perfect match.

David: So it’s not just the economics of it, it’s the culture.

Klaus: It’s very important. I mean, many acquisitions fail because of culture or because of different visions or different missions. Or different drivers behind. So we are lucky that this one was really a no-brainer and worked quite well so far as well.

David: So on that topic, I know we’ve spoken many times over the years about all of this stuff: the marketing, the business, everything else. But you reiterate to me often that the key three concepts of at least your philosophy of running a business is it’s empathy, science, technology. Every key thing happens in one of those three areas. Could you tell us a bit more about that, please?

Klaus: Yeah. So that’s a little bit of a conclusion, I would say, out of my 20 years of experience right now, which we are together actually explored since I think more than one year now. And yeah, so that is how I like to frame my leadership style, but also how I run a business which is both obviously connected. So in regards to empathy and science and technology. So we have multiple examples behind on why this is important. We released articles on empathy and technology just recently, and we are launching right now, no it’s the other way around. Yeah, I got a little bit confused here.

David: Here when we are releasing.

Klaus: Exactly. So we are okay. So we circle back.

David: We are releasing.

Klaus: Okay.

David: We have released.

Klaus: Recently. We have released recently. And then I say empathy and science and we are working on the technology part okay. So as you know we have also released articles around that. So we started with empathy which then followed by a spin off with From Project Manager to CEO, if I recall correctly, which obviously played a big part on this empathy thing. And then we continued with science, and right now we are working on the release later. In the coming weeks on the technology part as well. So, yeah, that’s in a nutshell: empathy, science, and technology is I think is my kind of North Star in terms of when it comes down to leadership, management, private as well. In my private environment, I use those frameworks or these principles as well in order to do what I do right now.

David: Okay. Well, let’s drill into the three concepts then. So empathy is a word that you hear a lot these days. I think, especially with the younger generation, they like to throw this word around a lot. I don’t think they even understand what it means, to be honest. But what does empathy mean to you?

Klaus: So often people confuse empathy with sympathy. And we also talked about that. So in sympathy you are kind of feeling pity for the other person at the same time and not really helping them because you are kind of just supporting their emotion during that time, which is either positive or negative, which is not really a good outcome. When we look to empathy, it’s the understanding that this person is, or we need to understand where this person is coming from and what triggered that situation or that emotion by understanding the person or the reality behind that outcome. And that’s why I try to stay very close to my people or to people in my environment, and to understand more than just, more than just what’s on their job profile or on their job description. I’m genuinely interested about their private life and where they are coming from, what’s their family situation like, if they want to share that with me, right? But it helps obviously to find the right trigger points and the right leadership styles for each of the individuals, because often and even in today’s environment, there’s not one concept which fits all of the different individuals in the world, right.

So we need to have a situational leadership style, which you need to adapt from time to time, even with the same person you are leading. And, yeah. So for me, empathy means that I understand where they are coming from, I understand what motivates them, I understand what eventually drove them to this situation we are having in front of us and to deal with, and therefore it helps me to go through a different motivation channel to be still firm but empathetic. So to not go down on their pitty-ness or whatever else in order to really try to be logical behind also and not just only emotionally driven, but from a standpoint where it helps them to see a constructive feedback and a constructive, let’s say, guidance out of that without being seen too soft or even too hard, because all of those things are being taken into account.

David: I think your key insight there that I got from that was the real, the sympathy empathy thing, because sympathy is passive, as you said, it’s just oh, poor you. Right. Whereas empathy is active, it’s trying to actually understand the situation so you can actually be helpful. Yeah. Sympathy feels good. You know, like, oh, I care. So sorry for you, but it’s not, it’s useless. It’s not actually helpful. Empathy might even be more tough, but it’s actually much better because it’s active. You actually want to help. You want to try and get through to see what you can do, what you can improve. So I read that article that you wrote about From Project Management to CEO. And I think there’s a lot of insight there and why you got to this perspective. Because obviously you started at the bottom and now we’re here. And I think you played it to me before. Yeah, so like just give me a quick overview of that. Like, what was it about that career journey that you’ve had that gives you that? Because a lot of people just go straight from Harvard Business School into CEO. They miss the steps necessary to see how everything fits together.

Klaus: Yeah. So I mean, I think I got fortunate that I had a very strong supportive cycle during my journey at Continental, where I started, actually as a line operator or as an assembly operator. Actually, as a kind of a temporary worker back in my days. And I had a chance to meet influencers throughout that time who helped me to see things differently. And they went after my ambition. I’m a very ambitious person. And when I see something, I think I can do better or I can improve, and which logically makes sense to me without even understanding the concept behind, I’m going for that. And I think this stood out very, very early in my career for people who have seen that and they saw something and they supported me to go from there on forward. And then at one point of time, I arrived at a position to be a project manager. So now once you arrive there, you find yourself in a situation where a lot of people have expectations on the project’s outcomes, be it the customer, be it your boss, be it the entire company, or be it even your team members. You are suddenly put in a role of leadership without authority. And I think this is where my sense of empathy arrived from or derived from. Because over there, you need to find a way, how you connect with your teammates and how you connect with your team in a way of where they are doing what you want them to do without you telling them what they should do, as you do not have authority over them.

Klaus: So usually a project team is assembled from certain, let’s say, departments and allocated from the department head as a resource to that project team just to do something which is related to that department. So to break the silos and to start collaborating on project works, right. In order to drive one outcome from either the customer or the boss who gives you an assignment and they obviously from a hierarchy point of view, listen more to what the boss, the real boss with a disciplinary leadership line to them has to say, rather than a guy who has been put in charge in order to drive something forward they see as a burden anyhow, right, because they want to spend less as possible time over there and do something else. So you need to through the concept of empathy, but also understanding people and people’s motivation and just getting along to each other, I think over there, was a lot of leadership for me, a lot of lessons learned I had to have in order to arrive where I am today.

David: I think that’s also a fascinating insight because, as you said, you had no power, no authority. So the real skill there was you had to try and understand their pain points, understand what they wanted.

Klaus: From multiple stakeholder point of views.

David: Exactly, yeah. To get a victory that ultimately benefits everybody, but primarily you. I guess that’s why empathy is such a difficult skill. And everyone just goes to sympathy, because that is a very high level soft skill, the ability to negotiate. And it’s great that you got that experience early on because yeah, CEO life is essentially…

Klaus: Similar to that. Yeah. Although you have the authority but this is the last one you want to use, because a motivation from the outside is different from the motivation of the inside. So if you find the right motivation elements within your teammates from the inside, so they want to do it. They want to succeed. They want to be part of this. They want to be connected to the vision. They want to be connected to the mission. They see the values be put not only on the doors or on the walls are connected to what they really thrive by themselves, then you have an unstoppable team, you know. But if you have everything from the outside forced into the people you know, you are not succeeding.

David: I think the Thais call that ‘Bun Kun’ by the way. Check with Larry Persons on that. I will to do that.

Klaus: Shout out to Larry. So I will call you on this one.

David: 10% commission, please.

Klaus: I know it’s 4%, by the way.

David: For the science part, obviously, we’re not talking about being in a lab with chemicals much. That’s not how it works, yeah. But the scientific approach, making sure that things are tried and tested and process driven.

David: Yeah.

Klaus: And here I think we come back to a classic problem solving framework structures. And maybe this arrives from the time when I was working in quality and then also in operations where I got, where I was lucky enough to be, let’s say, part of this Six Sigma world and lean concepts and Kaizen and all of these buzzwords we know today. But from there, you can actually take away the scientific approach of how to solve a problem, how to describe a situation, how to improve something.

You cannot improve something which is not standardized, etc, etc. So this is what I talk about, what I mean with the scientific part in a leadership style. Because this kind of frameworks, which you can actually even create by yourself, everyone can have their own framework which works for them best in order to either lead a team or direct a team, or solve complex problems within a team. There are multiple ways, but this is this is what we mean with the science part of it.

David: Yeah. And as a business owner too, this really is key. Like, you’re building on sand if you don’t have proven processes and frameworks in place because every new employee has got their own thing going on, someone leaves, the whole system goes with them. Right.

Klaus: And this is not only true for business, also true for a manager with its team. You need to think of your team as a little factory maybe, right? I mean, it sounds a little bit weird, but like a little company. If they don’t have a framework in place. And what could this framework be? Rules of engagement. How do we address each other? What’s the level of respect of communication we say to each other? If we are in a project team or in a leadership team, is it okay I ignore your message for seven days, you know? Or is it okay I leave an email unanswered? So what’s the etiquette? And even those kind of little things, in my opinion, are part of the scientific thing because they can all be displayed in a framework and you can apply those parts then on business level or on leadership level as well.

David: They’re almost OKRs at that point, or KPIs maybe. But one thing that I found very interesting in the article that you wrote also was something that you don’t have very much about, which is everyone’s optimizing processes, continuous improvement. Everyone wants that. And as you said, these are kind of buzzwords, but they’re buzzwords for a reason. What you don’t often hear about is like optimizing of leadership, because it’s quite a lonely job to be the CEO, I believe. Yeah.

Klaus: Depends on your friends.

David: Yeah. But, you know, you’re at the top of the pyramid. No one’s got much sympathy for where you are, but if you’re not on top form, the whole thing falls apart.

Klaus: Yeah, self-care is extremely important.

David: Exactly. Yeah. You had a few good tips in the article around, like, what CEOs should be doing to basically optimize the most valuable resource they have, which is their own neuroscience, their own brain. What are a few of the key things that you either do yourself, or you would recommend other leaders to be doing to make sure that they are as, I guess, optimized as they can be?

Klaus: Yeah, it really starts with making sure you have your time scheduled for yourself. Little routines, morning routines, whatever works for you, you know? So, mindfulness, let’s say, practices. And I’m not talking about one hour meditation because I don’t have time to do one hour meditation, although I could have the time if I want to, but I think it’s also not really the right thing. Breathing techniques. You know, there are there are many different things you can do in order to help yourself to stay on the on the right track.

David: CEOs, take care of yourselves.

Klaus: Absolutely. Absolutely.

David: All right. So onto more general topics now. So obviously you’re connected to a big world of business through your network, through your connections and through your day to day experiences. In your opinion, what are some of the major trends that kind of the broader business world is going to be experiencing over the next year, three years, five years?

Klaus: Yeah. Generally seeing, when we look to where the business is currently heading or what are business trends, we see that we are entering more of a phase of resilience, reinvention, and responsibility. So I think those are the key three words. I mean, we see that the global economy is… You wake up tomorrow, you don’t know what’s happening, right? So, we have the situation with tariffs. We have situations with almost wars being deployed, even now in Asia where there are conflicts right in our hometown right now in our home country, which was many years ago not that case on that magnitude level. So, you need to be extremely resilient and you need to have a supply chain, which is resilient. You need to have a operating model which is agile and can be quickly responsive to all of those kinds of things. So this is from an operations point of view, I think what what everyone sees and what’s going on. I think a lot of, in general, a lot of consolidation happening in the market, where, so again customers towards suppliers are wanting to have more a one-stop-shop solution. Definitely.

Klaus: In order also to outsource the risk or the risk management of this part. So those kind of things and then, yeah, the ecosystem approach. I think that’s, that’s for me a trend, which is unstoppable, maybe already happening more often than you know. In my recent article I launched on ecosystems, we took the examples. Not even everybody knows about. Right. But talking about Disney and those kinds of things, many people don’t know that this is actually ecosystem because they don’t connect the dots. But we try simply to explain that and how that works. And yeah. And, those are the big ones, right? So but imagine on smaller scale level, how many ecosystems are maybe out there and how many work already in those kind of things. And I think this is the trend it’s going to. So yeah. So looking more on our own industry in terms of business trends I think digitalization is a is a key thing. Sustainability is a key thing. Again, the one-stop-shop solution, consolidation, ecosystem approaches. So those are the trends we are working on right now.

David: Okay. Amazing. So that’s the end of the serious questions for today. Okay. You can breathe easy now. So the final question is the question I ask every guest on this show. Basically, who are your favorite storytellers? Who are the people who inspire you? And don’t have to be Hansel and Gretel kind of stories. They can be business leaders who inspire you. They can be movie directors. They can be musicians even. Like, who are some of the people that you enjoy listening to them or reading them?

Klaus: Maybe I pick two of many I’m trying to engage with. First I would say is Dr. Joe Dispenza, reading his book You Are the Placebo is a true eye-opener in terms of neuroscience and how much power the brain has over all and everything. And the second one, and then connected, because this is my hobby to deep dive in those kind of things. So neuroscience, psychology, and how everything works and how you can actually improve yourself on those elements is Jim Kwik and he released the book, so Kwik Brain or he’s a brain coach or whatever you want to call that. And he released the book Limitless. And those are my main go-to authors or things I look for answers or inspirations, which I think formed also the way how I operate today, the way how I try to solve for me complex issues in a simplified way, or how I try to optimize my leadership style through the, let’s say, things I have learned or going to learn from those topics.

David: What are some of those things that you’ve learned?

Klaus: Well, there are a few techniques, explained by Jim Kwik, in terms of how you do quick reading or how you do memorizing. Those kinds of things are very hands-on and very useful little tips which often are unrecognized or undervalued. So there are techniques which helps you short-term memory or even your long-term memory, which is often related to storytelling. I remember one of the techniques where we would have to have a knowledge of the first ten presidents of the United States, which is a very difficult one if you are not born in the United States, for example, but in less than 15 minutes. George Bush. Exactly. So here it starts, right? Was a long time ago. So don’t ask me about those ten right now. But he explained the technique on how you, from a storytelling point of view, because your brain remembers stories more than just others and emotions obviously. So how you can connect all of those things or those stories and then literally by yourself arrive again to the answer to these conclusions. And it’s quite fascinating. So I use those techniques in my day-to-day life and so on. And the other thing which I found very helpful and this is part of my morning routine, for example.

David: You’ve told me about this. I feel like this is cheating on life a little bit. I feel like this is not a fair advantage that you have.

Klaus: Really? Everyone can do that. But what I try to do is often, so this goes into my morning routine. When I wake up in the morning, usually people tell you not to go directly to your phone or not do this, not do this, not do this in order to have a good morning routine and not to be connected immediately with the world and with the world’s problems or with your business problems. Well, I see it different. That’s just me, because I’m very much committed to the business and to my company and to my people.

So usually, first things against all the advisors, what I do is I do check my phone and especially my emails. So I have a quick screening on the emails which came in overnight or in the last evening hours, which I have not checked and often, as the CEO, there’s not only good news who will be which will be shared with you. The good news are arriving very late, but the bad news are coming quite quickly. And when there are bad news or problems and they are arriving at your desk, you can imagine this is not a small thing. It’s not like we have no toilet paper on company bottle A you know, and how do we allocate the last of the three rolls to the right people? So these are luckily the problems not coming up to my desk. That’s what I get. Exactly.

Think about the ecosystem here. So those are complex things. And what I usually do then is I take this complex, I choose what are the one or two problems, sometimes three I need to address today. And in order to get prepared into that, I try to afterwards go back into sleep with having in mind those three problems, and I kind of went through some training and practices, you can extend you can go into a sleep.

David: Lucid dreaming?

Klaus: Yeah. Something like this. You can go into a stage of sleep where you are half awake, but also half deep asleep. And once you are there, time is becoming kind of irrelevant.

David: Like Inception.

Klaus: Yeah. Like this movie, right? So. And it’s for me, at least, it works. So in a 20 minute nap or whatever I call it, I have afterwards, I feel like I have one or two hours of my time, and then I can go through these problems and try to analyze solutions, test even solutions, and come back. And then after I wake up, sometimes it works, sometimes it’s not. But that’s the way how I start. That’s how I start my day.

David: And I think it’s cheating because you get more hours in day.

David: I get more hours than any others.

Klaus: You have to try it out.

David: Yeah, I actually have tried it. It’s pretty good.

Klaus: It is, right?

David: Yeah, yeah. I tried it, as you recommended it to me like I had. I woke up in the morning and I knew I had loads of meetings that day, and I just kind of, like, tried to, like, think through what I was going to do and kind of fell asleep. And I was able to play it out. And often,

Klaus: I mean, dreaming is something subconsciously we have, let’s say, acknowledged, but not really taken consciously into account, right. So the brain hasn’t processed it yet, but the brain needs to process things. That’s why sleeping is so important. And dreams help to process subconscious, let’s say, events. But this lucid dreaming or whatever we want to call it, if you are half awake and half asleep, here you can bring even conscious things into the spotlight and drill them down. And this is something I do on a regular basis.

David: That’s fascinating. It does explain why you’ve been able to have so much success so quickly. You’ve got more time.

Klaus: Exactly.

David: All right, Klaus. Well, on that topic, sweet dreams.

Klaus: Thank you.

David: Thank you.

Klaus: Thank you for your time. I go back to sleep.

David: That was amazing. Thank you, Klaus. Cheers, mate.

Klaus: Ok, cheers.

About the speakers

David Norcross is CEO and Founder of Lexicon, Bangkok’s #1 Digital Storytelling agency.

Klaus Hoffmann is Group CEO of CCE Group, a global aerospace platform dedicated to developing and accelerating the growth of high-potential companies into market leaders within niche segments of the cabin and cargo industry. Its portfolio includes AviusULD, Driessen Catering Equipment, and Trip&Co.

With extensive international leadership experience from Safran Cabin and Continental, Klaus drives innovation, integration, and a high-performance culture across the group, focusing on employee engagement, customer value, and stakeholder excellence.