David: Hello, welcome to the first episode of season three of Bangkok Thought Leaders. Here we are in Lexicon’s beautiful new studio. For the first episode, we have a very, very special guest. We have Dr. Larry Persons here with us today. Larry is one of Bangkok’s true thought leaders and also an inspiration to me personally. Last year, I was fortunate enough to come across his book, The Way Thais Leap, which is just right here. I read this book page to page and it changed my vision of how to be a leader in Thailand. There are all sorts of great insights into things that you’d never imagined before, but that you see every day. So as an expat leader especially, I strongly recommend you read this book. But even if you’re a Thai leader, there are lots of insights for you on how you lead too. Around Christmas time, Larry gave me a kind gift of the Netflix book, No Rules Rules, which is one of the things I’d love to discuss with him today. The book, again as Larry’s book had done earlier in the year, changed my whole perception of management and leadership. We’re at Lexicon now with 48 staff, and increasingly I’m feeling that we need more and more rules in order to avoid problems, to avoid issues coming. The more structure we have, the more process we have, the better things are going to be. However, the Netflix book suggests the opposite to be true. Rather than more rules, we should have fewer rules. It seems counterintuitive, but it’s working for Netflix. So, Dr. Persons, what do you make of the book?

Dr. Larry Persons: I think it’s very, very insightful on many accounts. I love that it’s sort of an earthquake, especially in any hierarchical setting like most of the settings here in Thailand. It runs in the face of many of the things I’ve written about in my research, which is always a challenge. And that’s probably something we can talk about here today in specifics.

David: Yeah, absolutely. I feel that the two books are companion pieces, that they’re completely opposite in their approach to understanding how culture works. But I think the Netflix culture inside Thailand could never work in its present form. It requires your concepts to interface with it. As I mentioned already, for us, the reading of both books was a revelation. It’s inspired us as a company to change the way we see the future. We’re now looking to genuinely create a culture of excellence that’s blending from both sets of ideas. How do we embrace Thai culture while also embracing Netflix culture? This is a conundrum that I think the whole world, or the whole country, is going to be facing over the next five to ten years. I think a generational shift is happening right now. One of the key concepts in the book that I think is especially going to be difficult is the concept of sunshining. Is that the sunshining word?

Dr. Larry Persons: Yes, sunshining.

David: So sunshining is what the CEO of Netflix, Reed Hastings, talks about. When he makes bad decisions or mistakes, he doesn’t hide away from them. He will call a meeting of the whole company and explain: here’s the logic I was trying to go through, here’s the decision I made, terrible mistake, but we can all learn from it. So we’re learning from our mistakes, we’re growing, we’re getting better. How do you feel that concept would work here in Thailand?

Dr. Larry Persons: Wow, that’s going to be a very difficult sell in most Thai circles, in most Thai organisations. Very difficult sell. It flies in the face of face rules. Everybody is raksana. They’re going to protect their own face. It’s like a treasure that you need to protect. And I think the idea that a leader makes a mistake and admits to the mistake is a loss of face on the part of the leader. Until certain companies and leaders can get over that and move beyond that and model something new, it’s going to be a very difficult sell.

David: Is a leader expected to be perfect in Thailand?

Dr. Larry Persons: Pretty much. I think so.

David: On both sides?

Dr. Larry Persons: Yeah.

David: So the employees expect perfection, and the person themselves?

Dr. Larry Persons: I think everybody knows no one’s perfect, but it doesn’t keep everybody from pretending that they’re perfect and not owning up to their mistakes. In face work, which is what we do, we’re doing face right now, but in face work the whole idea is you have front-stage behaviours and backstage behaviours. Irving Goffman, 50–60 years ago.

David: Presentation of self in everyday life.

Dr. Larry Persons: Yes, very good. And so this self-presentation, or this tweaking of images, we’re doing it all day long, all of us. Not just Thais, all of us are doing that. But the whole idea with Thai face work is that you’ve got this front-stage behaviour that you’re focusing on, and there’s just an awful lot hidden backstage. So this idea of transparency as it’s described in the book is just going to sound initially unacceptable for most traditional Thai leaders.

David: I think some people may wonder why I’m talking about corporate culture as a marketing person, but I think all of these worlds connect together—sociology, social science, cultural studies. Even the word you mentioned, persona, is face, right? It’s literally the word person that comes from face. So a leader’s persona is essential to their baramee, their structure, their position in society, and the favours they can borrow. I think as an expat leader I’m able to kind of navigate around those things more easily than a Thai leader could. But what do you think the reaction would be if a Thai leader suddenly, every Monday morning, started announcing all the things they’d failed? Do you think that would rally the troops, or would it create a mutiny?

Dr. Larry Persons: It depends on who the troops are, I think. And again, if we’re going to change microcultures, starting with smaller companies, then you’re going to need to recruit the right people. I’ve said it before—you’re going to have to recruit outliers from Thai society. That doesn’t necessarily mean just all young people either, because even amongst them there’s such a drastic difference. But you’ve got to recruit people who are not dutiful, who are willing to speak up, who are willing to challenge. So that would help. If the troops were like that, they would probably have a celebration if their leader actually said it like it was.

David: That brings on to another topic from the book, which is that of talent density. There’s a great example early in the book where Netflix, in its early days, lost some funding and had to cut 25% of their staff. They expected productivity and morale to drop, but the opposite happened. Performance improved, productivity went up, and they became a stronger team. That idea of rewarding based on merit feels counterintuitive to Thai culture. If I removed 25% of the Lexicon team, there would definitely be a mutiny. How does Thailand get to a place where this works?

Dr. Larry Persons: It flies in the face of the family model. Most Thai companies are built on the idea that “we’re one big family.” And you don’t remove people from a family. But talent density says you’re willing to let go of several average performers to bring in one top performer. That’s a major shift in thinking. Companies would have to start seeing themselves more like professional sports teams.

David: That’s a powerful metaphor. I think of Lexicon as a family, but a sports team is about performance. That leads to another idea—candour and feedback. Netflix encourages constant feedback across all levels. Where is Thailand in terms of adopting that?

Dr. Larry Persons: It’s a real uphill journey. Giving negative feedback is very difficult. It hurts. There’s a mindset that if I’m doing something wrong, you don’t need to tell me. But this system requires the opposite. The challenge is that giving feedback risks disrupting group harmony, which people try to protect.

David: Why do you think that is?

Dr. Larry Persons: I don’t fully know yet. But in Thai culture, authority figures rarely apologise, and leaders rarely apologise. That becomes the model. If someone loses face, everyone feels uncomfortable. So people avoid criticism.

David: Let’s talk about Thailand 4.0. The country has everything it needs to compete globally, but seems to struggle. What’s holding it back?

Dr. Larry Persons: You can’t just decide to become something new without understanding who you are first. There are many beautiful aspects of Thai culture, but there are also elements that limit competitiveness—especially face rules. Thailand needs to think about “Thai values 4.0.” If you don’t address what’s getting in the way, you won’t move forward.

David: What are some of those obstacles?

Dr. Larry Persons: Kreng jai is one—being overly deferential and hesitant to speak up. Another is avoidance of confrontation. People avoid conflict to preserve harmony, but that can limit progress. They need to recognise what they gain by addressing issues directly.

David: That ties back to agility.

Dr. Larry Persons: Yes, but it’s not something you can just implement. It requires self-awareness. Many behaviours are reflexive rather than reflective.

David: So what’s the roadmap forward?

Dr. Larry Persons: There’s no single solution. It will require a collective effort. But Thailand 4.0 won’t succeed unless it addresses Thai values at a deeper level.

David: Do you think the younger generation is different?

Dr. Larry Persons: I don’t have formal research, but there are strong signs of change. Younger people seem more open and willing to challenge norms. The key is harnessing that energy.

David: And that leads to baramee leadership?

Dr. Larry Persons: Yes. Baramee leadership is about using power for the benefit of others. It’s about empowerment, not control.

David: So Thailand 4.0 powered by baramee.

Dr. Larry Persons: I’m a big fan of that idea.

David: Thank you so much, Dr. Larry. You’ve taken up too much of your valuable time already, but I’ve learned a lot from this. I think if anyone can bridge these two worlds, it’s you. The Netflix book has so many great ideas, and your book has so many great ideas. If any company is looking to create that agile culture here on the ground, you’re definitely the person to speak to. Whether you’re looking to revolutionise your company culture, develop cross-cultural intelligence, or find a cultural coach or guide, I’d highly recommend Dr. Persons. Larry, how can people reach you?

Dr. Larry Persons: Please connect with me on LinkedIn, and we are at leadwithcq.com. Take a look at our website as well.

David: Thank you very much.

Dr. Larry Persons: Thanks so much, David. Great to be with you.